Charley Rosen compares Rondo, Rose, and Westbrook

[Plainsman]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/a...-nba-questions

Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo and Russell Westbrook are all young playmakers. Which of these players in your opinion is going to have the greatest success in the upcoming years? – Kuba, Poland

Of these three, Rondo is the “purest” point guard, primarily because he can’t shoot and must therefore concentrate on passing and other aspects of his game. That said, every player who’s good enough to make the NBA can always become a better shooter. The only variables are the expertise of the instructor and the player’s commitment to put in the necessary time and effort. Should Rondo ever improve his jumpers — as well as become more coachable — his speed and his defense will put him at the top of this particular list in the foreseeable future.


Derrick Rose has the most physical strength of this group, and because of the Bulls' personnel has more responsibility to score. Hence his 20.3 points and 17.7 shots per game. Rose has a terrific left-to-right crossover, and is a consistent finisher when taking his right hand to the rim. But his left hand needs to be developed, as does his long-distance shooting — 24.0% on only 25 treys attempted thus far this season. He is indeed an unselfish player with most of his assists coming on drives-and-kicks. But he often over-penetrates and ends up making poor decisions in the paint. Rose’s defense leaves much to be desired.

At this stage of his career, Rose is more of a slasher and a pull-up scorer who’s still learning the nuances of point-guard play. Should he be surrounded with more reliable shooters/scorers than he currently is, Rose’s development could be much more rapid. But he’ll never evolve into being the quintessential point guard that Rondo might easily become.

Russell Westbrook is having an easier time transitioning from a scoring guard to a point guard. However, one reason why his assist totals are so high — 7.9 — is that out-passes to the sharp-shooting Kevin Durant are usually transformed into scores. These are relatively “easy” assists.

Also because of Durant, Westbrook isn’t required to either shoot or score as much as Rose — 14.5 shots and 16.6 points. Although they’re roughly the same size — 6-3 and approximately 190 pounds — Westbrook has more difficulty than Rose finishing in heavy traffic. Like Rose, Westbrook’s defense and 3-point shooting — 25.0% — are way under par. Look for Westbrook to develop into more of a classic point guard than Rose.

[RicanThunder]

Like Rose, Westbrook’s defense and 3-point shooting — 25.0% — are way under par.

Westbrook's defense is way under par???? Huh??? Did I miss something here? Isn't he one of the better defensive point guards in the league?

[Plainsman]

Westbrook's defense is way under par???? Huh??? Did I miss something here? Isn't he one of the better defensive point guards in the league?

That's what crossed my mind , also.

Rosen is a Thunder critic who has been shut up, if that makes sense. He's having a tough time saying good things about any Thunder player or the team, yet he can't be critical cause they playing too well.

I'm really surprised he used that question, just the fact that he includes RW in a discussion with Rose and Rondo is a small victory when it comes to Rosen .

He panned KD the other day saying his game has a lot of maturing to do, or something to that effect. But that was after he reviewed last week's Denver game.

But really, most of the stuff at that Fox site is about Lebron, Kobe, or some other established star or top tier team. They seem to think having a Lebron article every day is covering the NBA.

[okcnba]

Westbrook's defense is way under par???? Huh??? Did I miss something here? Isn't he one of the better defensive point guards in the league?

1 on 1 he's a great defender, problem is that doesn't happen much in the NBA. He still MASSIVELY struggles covering the pick and role, and when picks come (with no role) he often switches to covering the opposing teams 4 or 5 which you HAVE to avoid if at all possible as a point guard in this league. He has the ability to be the best defender on the team, and on some nights he is, but on many nights he gets abused.

[okcnba]

PS: Often times he cheats off his man to try and get extra steals... which is very DWade of him... also why I think DWade is one of the most over-rated defensive guards in the NBA.

[Plainsman]

It sure seems to me that Russell gets a lot of deflections , steals, blocks, and strips the ball a bunch . He's active on the defensive end.

[Clangus]

Charlie Rosen is a dickwad who wouldn't know good basketball if it jumped up and bit off his junk.

[Dio]

Charley's just mad the Cavalry's not still here.

[the worm]

Westbrook is definitely the inferior of the 3.

Worm Life.

[Thunderstruck83]

Knicks are going to the playoffs baby. You heard it here first.

Worm Life.


Well you said ^^^ a few weeks ago so there went your credibility...I think RW0 and Rose are about equal and Rondo is a little ahead of them just based on experience.

[DAK!]

Charlie Rosen is a dickwad who wouldn't know good basketball if it jumped up and bit off his junk.

I'm confused by this statement....the last time a basketball jumped up and bit off my junk I didn't think it was very good....

[DAK!]

I get into arguments all the time about Rondo with the people I work with because I think he's better than they do. Being in the Boston area I work with Celtics fans, and they are especially harsh on Rondo. The guy can't shoot to save his life. His above 50% for fg is inflated because of his inside scoring. Granted, the guy is doing well putting the ball in the hoop at a high rate, but the things people I work with complain about is the guy refuses to take open shots from deep when he needs to. If you look at his FT and 3-point percentages they are horrible for a PG. Overall, I'd say Rondo is the worst shooter of the group.

When you look at his assist numbers they dwarf the other two in terms of production, but you have to look deeper into it to see if he's a better facilitator in reality. Rondo is in his 4th season, thus having twice as much playing time to progress as the other two on the list. He also has a lineup of teammates that the other two can't compete with. He's had deadly outside shooters in Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Eddie House and for a time Rasheed Wallace. He has one of the best natural scoring big men in Kevin Garnett who can fill it from anywhere on the court. While Kendrick Perkins may not be a dominant inside scorer he can fill it up with consistency when Rondo gets him the ball down low. Rondo's options for setting up teammates is so much better at this stage than Russ or Rose that it's not even funny. Rondo's teammates are starting to get long in the tooth and losing their high abilities, but most of them are still shooting at good percentages. You also have to look at what Rondo did in his second season to compare the progression of the other two. In his second season he had 5.1 assists which is lower than Rose's 5.7 and much lower than Russ' 7.9. If you remember in Rondo's second year that was when Boston acquired both Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett, so even then he had a team stocked with offensive talent. Overall, I'd say Rondo is the worst facilitator of the group.

Where Rondo still holds the best ability at this time is his defense. He is the smallest guy, so he gives up something when it comes to being pushed around by bigger guards or being posted up, but really how often does that happen? He's quick enough to stay in front of pretty much anybody and has great instincts for picking off balls. Also, he has a great group of veteran teammates that provide upper echelon help defense when he needs it. There's a reason that Boston leads the league in defense and it's not just because of Rondo. Their system and personnel aids Rondo in being the best defensive PG in the league, but even with that help he is still the guy to beat in this area.

The first thing I took from that article was that whoever this guy is doesn't know what he's talking about from the first sentence I read. He said that Rondo is the purest PG of the group because he can't shoot the ball and therefor must focus on his passing and setting up teammates. That's like saying that Nash and Paul aren't natural PG's because they can shoot well and score a lot. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Nash and Paul are the two purest PG's in the league, but they have the ability to do other things too. That was just an insanely ignorant comment to make just to find something to try and prove a point.

That's like me saying I must not be very smart because I'm so damn good looking. If I can pull off both then why can't they?

[DAK!]

In comparing Russ to the others in the three categories I spoke of with Rondo, shooting, play making and defense he, at worst, compares favorably to the other two.

None of the players in this group shoot the ball very well from a pure shooting ability standpoint, but I'd say Rose tops this list. Russ is a bit better overall as a pure shooter than Rondo and a bit below Rose in this progression. I haven't had the chance to see Rose play as much as Rondo or Russ, but the times I have seen him play he has had some impressive games nailing jumpers consistently. Something else Rose does well is he knows his limitations. He's not a very good deep shooter, so he doesn't take very many of them. His progression in the mid range game is better so far than Russ' and that is the one area where I think he's doing a better job. With that being said I think Russ comes in second on this list. He's starting to do more of the same as Rose by limiting his deep shots and focusing on his driving and mid range game. If he stays with that game plan, until he figures out the arc, he could get to or overtake Rose in this area.

Considering Russ had the least amount of experience of the group at the position and him being the only guy that people questioned as far as being a play making PG I'd say if all numbers were equal he'd still be doing better. But that isn't the case even. His play making numbers far outweigh the other two. I made this argument in a head to head discussion between Rose and Russ and it was argued in Rose's favor that he doesn't have the scorers that Russ has, and I'd agree with that to an extent, but with Rose's supposed massive ability he was supposed to overcome these things like other elite PG's have done, and it's not like he's playing with a team full of complete stiffs. It was also said in that retarded article that Russ' numbers are inflated because he has KD for easy assists....ummmm really? First, Russ doesn't just hand the ball to KD every time for an assist. Second, Russ isn't the guy always passing the ball to KD when he's shooting. The ball does get swung around from time to time. Russ also doesn't have ANYTHING as far as low post talent to get those "easy" assists. I started harping on it as early as the middle of last year that Russ needs a consistent inside scoring big man to get those easy assists for him to help his progression. Why wasn't it said about Rondo having a completely stacked team of scoring players for easy assists? He has deadly outside shooters...many of them. He has one of the best scoring big men in the game in Garnett, and he has a very high % shooting center in Perkins. The guy shoots at over 60%. Russ has KD. Rondo has Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Perkins and he had House before the trade deadline last month. In Rondo's second season, when he had all those teammates at an even higher ability, his assist numbers were much lower than Russ'. He also played PG consistently in college, so he had more experience playing the position. The question originally asked to begin the article was of the three which player is going to have the greatest success in the upcoming years. With Ray Allen about to retire and Garnett and Pierce on their last legs I'd say Rondo's time of having "easy" assists are almost over. As far as play making ability goes I'm rating Rondo a distant third on this list even though his assist numbers are higher than the other two. With Rose coming out of Memphis it was talked about him having amazing court vision and an uncanny ability to set up teammates. I've read many reviews of his progression saying that he's not living up to expectations in this regard. He consistently gets himself overextended and in positions where he's forced to put up bad shots because he has nowhere else to go with the ball. His regression from his perceived play making abilities to go with Russ' progression of his perceived play making abilities I'd put them neck and neck in this category. I'd list Russ at 1a and Rose at 1b.

In the defensive category I'd say that Russ is making some of his best progression. He was touted as a great prospective defender coming out of college with his size, strength, quickness and intensity to go along with his Pac-10 defensive player of the year award as a sophomore it shouldn't be a surprise that he's progressing to this level. Why I think he's making some of his best progress in this category is because he struggled a bit last year with the system and the transition to this level of play, but I'd attribute some of that to him focusing so much on trying to learn to play the point. He's really turned it on this year and has become a deadly defensive player. Of course, as was talked about in a previous post, he has much more improvement in certain areas of his defense, but overall he's a menace out there. He's constantly picking off passes and/or deflecting them out of bounds or to teammates. He's contesting shots at the rim more so than any other PG in the league and he does do a pretty good job of on ball defense. I'd agree that he still gets lost in the mix a bit at times during switches on pick and roll plays, but that's one of the tougher plays to defend against. If done right by an offense it's the most difficult play to contest and if done really well it's almost impossible to defend. Just ask Stockton and Malone. He'll get better at it in time. It was also talked about in the article about Rondo's speed when referring to his ability and I'm inferring that the guy is talking about his defense being better than the other two due to his speed....ummmm both Rose and Russ are pretty damn fast themselves. Right now I'd say Rondo is the best overall defensive player, but Russ is a hair behind him. When talking about overall ability and full progression I think Russ has the edge on Rondo big time. In the next year or two I'm predicting that Rondo won't even be talked about in the same breath as Russ when it comes to defense. Rose is a wild card in this respect because he was also touted as a stellar defensive talent. I'm sure some of his injuries have derailed his progression, but he still has the abilities to be an upper echelon player on that side of the ball. Right now I'd rank Rose third on the list here, but I think he has the ability to overtake Rondo also. His size, speed and power compares to Russ in that they both have ability over Rondo. It just depends whether Rose has the intensity and drive to progress here....to that I don't know.

When it comes to listing all these things together and giving an equal point tally to each rating here are my results. Russ is second behind Rose in shooting ability, tied with Rose for play making ability and second behind Rondo for defense. That gives Russ a point total of 5. Rose has a point total of 5, and Rondo has a point total of 6. I guess this goes along with my true feeling about the three in that Russ and Rose are too close to call which one will be better in the next few years and Rondo is third behind them.

[Clangus]

I agree Dak, Rondo is a product of playing with 3 HOF'ers and a slew of good outside shooters.

I like RW overall simply because of his rebounding.

I would submit that if RW was the #1 option he would be putting up higher scoring stats and similar assists, and statistically blow the other 2 away.

Rosen is a moron, his reasoning and his writing smacks of someone who
a) hasn't watched any of these guys play
b) hasn't played so much as a pickup games himself
c) May have gotten his journalism degree online from Tiawan
d) Doesn't understand basketball at all, not even on a basic level.

Seriously that was such a poor effort, with ZERO valid points i tihnk any 14yearold poster on any crappy forum you like could have done a better job. (perhaps he actually stole the entire article from a grade schooler?)