For the critics of PJ

[Plainsman]

And those who think he's just a transitional coach , this story in todays Oklahoman belies that. They are thinking very long term ........

http://newsok.com/thunder-developing-continuity/article/3313368/?custom_click=lead_story_title


Thunder developing continuity

Getting better It’s the key to keeping everything consistent throughout the organization

By Darnell Mayberry
Published: October 20, 2008

Two words are likely to tack on a few more wins to the Thunder’s record this season.

Corporate knowledge.

It’s a phrase Thunder GM Sam Presti and coach P.J. Carlesimo smuggled from coach Gregg Popovich in San Antonio and look to develop here in Oklahoma City.
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It’s established through years of franchise continuity that allows players, coaches and front office executives to grow and master the workings of the organization.

The Spurs achieved it and won three championships in five years by keeping their core — Tim Duncan, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili — intact, along with key coaches and executives.

The Thunder is in Year 2 of its corporate knowledge development, and that is expected to bolster this season’s squad as much as the projected sophomore improvement of Kevin Durant and Jeff Green.

"We’re so much further ahead — even with the (preseason) injuries — of where we were this time last year,” Carlesimo said. "There’s no comparison.”

Consistency brings comfort, which lets players perform freely, naturally and more effectively when not over thinking.

Nick Collison, Damien Wilkins and Robert Swift knew no such comfort. They were on their fourth coach in four years when Carlesimo took over last season. Carlesimo was the team’s third coach in three years for Chris Wilcox, Earl Watson and Johan Petro.

Here’s how non-existent the franchise’s corporate knowledge was: holdover assistant coach Ralph Lewis was forced to run offensive sets from former coach Bob Hill’s offense while coaching Durant and Green in summer league play before their rookie seasons.

"Ralph didn’t know what we were going to do, how we were going to do it or anything,” Carlesimo said.

But the Thunder’s entire coaching staff is back. Nine players have returned. And the team’s rookies are hearing in this preseason much of what they were instructed throughout the Orlando Summer League.

"We just have so many people that know our sets, know our terminology, know what we’re doing and how we’re doing it even if we’re not doing it yet at the level we like,” Carlesimo said.

"It was just so much more elementary last year. Every drill that went in was going in for the first time. Every offense and how we were going to play things defensively was all new.”

[Betts]

The ownership and management must like what they see in Carlesimo. It will be interesting to see if they're right. He certainly seems like a likeable guy. Time will tell if he can mold this team into a winner.

[Starksfan311]

Honestly PJ has never had a real chance to be a successful head coach.

In Portland he first had a team full of way over the hill players Drexler, Porter, Buck Williams, Kersey, Otis Thorpe. All those guys should have retired 3 years before they finally did. Then they started to become the Jailblazers in his 2nd and 3rd year there. JR Rider, Rasheed Wallace, Rod Strickland then Kenny Anderson, Gary Trent, Stacey Augmon was a prick. Trader Bob Whit**** was a horrible GM, PJ never had a chance.

In Golden State Latrell Sprewell destroyed that first season. When Donyell Marshall and one of the biggest #1 pick busts of all time Joe Smith are your best players you're in trouble. And his 2nd season I love John Starks to death but when a 34 year old with a bad left knee whos career is near the brick wall is by far the best player on the team you're in trouble. And the 3rd year Starks had hit the brick wall and was traded after PJ was fired and Donyell Marshall and a young Antawn Jamison were the best players. Jamison missed half that season due to injury. Piss poor managment once again, draft bust after draft bust, trades for over the hill players, PJ never had a chance.



Coaches are always the first to take the ax but when a team loses most of the time it's a horrible front office that's usually at fault. And Sam Presti is the 2nd best GM in the league so PJ is getting a real chance this time.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

...Coaches are always the first to take the ax but when a team loses most of the time it's a horrible front office that's usually at fault. And Sam Presti is the 2nd best GM in the league so PJ is getting a real chance this time.

I'm curious. Who's number 1 in your book? I still don't believe that Presti's quite the second best yet, give him a couple more years.

As far as PJ goes, I think he's a good coach. I hope it just translates here.

[Starksfan311]

I'm curious. Who's number 1 in your book? I still don't believe that Presti's quite the second best yet, give him a couple more years.

As far as PJ goes, I think he's a good coach. I hope it just translates here.

Kevin Pritchard

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

Kevin Pritchard

Hmmm....interesting.

I think my top 2 is Joe Dumars and Bryan Colangelo, but maybe I'm putting more emphasis on experience. I think time will tell on both Pritchard and Presti. Presti did come up with San Antonio, and RC Buford's a pretty good GM himself. I think one other GM to watch is John Hammond up in Milwaukee.

[Trueblood]

Honestly PJ has never had a real chance to be a successful head coach.

In Portland he first had a team full of way over the hill players Drexler, Porter, Buck Williams, Kersey, Otis Thorpe. All those guys should have retired 3 years before they finally did. Then they started to become the Jailblazers in his 2nd and 3rd year there. JR Rider, Rasheed Wallace, Rod Strickland then Kenny Anderson, Gary Trent, Stacey Augmon was a prick. Trader Bob Whit**** was a horrible GM, PJ never had a chance.

In Golden State Latrell Sprewell destroyed that first season. When Donyell Marshall and one of the biggest #1 pick busts of all time Joe Smith are your best players you're in trouble. And his 2nd season I love John Starks to death but when a 34 year old with a bad left knee whos career is near the brick wall is by far the best player on the team you're in trouble. And the 3rd year Starks had hit the brick wall and was traded after PJ was fired and Donyell Marshall and a young Antawn Jamison were the best players. Jamison missed half that season due to injury. Piss poor managment once again, draft bust after draft bust, trades for over the hill players, PJ never had a chance.



Coaches are always the first to take the ax but when a team loses most of the time it's a horrible front office that's usually at fault. And Sam Presti is the 2nd best GM in the league so PJ is getting a real chance this time.

Good takes. I followed the Warriors really closely during his tenure and like you said, he had nothing to work with. It's hard to get the offense started when Bimbo Coles is your point guard.

[Trueblood]

Hmmm....interesting.

I think my top 2 is Joe Dumars and Bryan Colangelo, but maybe I'm putting more emphasis on experience. I think time will tell on both Pritchard and Presti. Presti did come up with San Antonio, and RC Buford's a pretty good GM himself. I think one other GM to watch is John Hammond up in Milwaukee.

I like Pritchard but let's not forget that he has an owner who will open up his wallet for any deal that's out there. For example, most owners wouldn't take on Raef Lafrent'z deal in exchange for being able to get the #6 pick in a weak draft but he did and the pick turned out to be the best player in that draft, Brandon Roy. Pritchard looks good for making that pick but if he's working for anyone else, he probably doesn't get to pull the string.

Dumars is great. Also, Geoff Petrie of Sacramento built a great team in the early part of this decade. They blow now but he's still a good GM who has been limited lately due to the lack of revenue.

RC Buford in San Antonio is another one. Presti gets credit for Parker but Buford knew about Ginobili as well as a host of other steals.

[Betts]

Let's not forget Jeff Bowers. I think he's an up and comer, but time will tell.

[Starksfan311]

I like Pritchard but let's not forget that he has an owner who will open up his wallet for any deal that's out there. For example, most owners wouldn't take on Raef Lafrent'z deal in exchange for being able to get the #6 pick in a weak draft but he did and the pick turned out to be the best player in that draft, Brandon Roy. Pritchard looks good for making that pick but if he's working for anyone else, he probably doesn't get to pull the string.

Dumars is great. Also, Geoff Petrie of Sacramento built a great team in the early part of this decade. They blow now but he's still a good GM who has been limited lately due to the lack of revenue.

RC Buford in San Antonio is another one. Presti gets credit for Parker but Buford knew about Ginobili as well as a host of other steals.




There was only a 13.5 million difference in Lafrentz and Ratliffs contracts. Telfair and Khryapa were unloaded that night their salaries add up to 7.5 million. They sent out 30.7 million in salaries that night and took back 39.5. 9 million really isn't much for another top 10 pick unless your owner is Shinn or Sterling most owners would spring for a deal like that. They paid 9 million in luxury taxes in 06-07 which they would have paid anyway with Ratliff. They paid 6 million in luxury taxes last season which they would have paid anyway with Ratliff. This season with Darius Miles not counting against their cap they will only pay about 2 million in luxury taxes. So Lafrentzs cost is 11 million or less than 3 million per year, that's really not that big of a salary difference to any owner.


Now all the buying of late 1st rounders for 3 million each, having Paul Allen as an owner does help with that. They bought Rudy Fernandez, Sergio Rodriguez, and Nic Batum for 3 million each and Petteri Koponen for Derrick Byars and 2 million. So 14 million for 3 future studs and well Sergio is a dud, that's cheap. Cheaper than signing James Posey for 25 million or Chris Duhon for 12 million.





Dumars and Buford are up at the top and Petrie is top 10. But Dumars and Buford are in awkward situations. Their teams are getting older and it's really time to start shaking those teams up to get younger while their current players still have trade value. But those players have been loyal for years and it's hard to not reciprocate that loyalty. But honestly they are both being trigger shy, Billups should have been traded after his meltdown in the 07 playoffs, and age killed the Spurs depth. I know RC Buford probably didn't want to do it but trading Luis Scola to save a few million was one of the most retarded trades in the past few years.

[Starksfan311]

Let's not forget Jeff Bowers. I think he's an up and comer, but time will tell.



Jeff Bower sucks. Drafting CP3 was a no brainer and he's lucky that Steve Patterson was running things in Portland during the 05 draft or CP3 would be a Trailblazer. Kevin Pritchard lobbied hard for them to keep the 3rd pick and draft CP3 this is ultimately why Patterson was replaced by Pritchard.

Bowers good moves:
1. Drafting CP3 (no brainer)
2. Trading for Tyson Chandler
3. Drafting Julian Wright
4. Stealing Brandon Bass in the 2nd round
4. Not pulling the trigger on the Ben Gordon trade
5. Letting Pargo walk

Bowers bad moves:
1. Letting Byron have major influence on his moves
2. Signing Peja to that ridiculous contract its killing their cap flexibility plus they were bidding against no one. Very few teams were interested in Peja and his bad back.
3. Drafting Hilton Armstrong and Cedric Simmons over Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Lowry or just about anyone else would have been better.
4. Signing an over the hill Bobby Jackson to a ridiculous contract
5. Trading Bobby Jackson for Mike James and his more ridiculous contract.
6. Overpaying for an over the hill Mo Pete, starting next year they will regret it
7. 6 million per year for 4 years for a 31 year old James Posey, in 2 years they will regret it.
8. Letting Brandon Bass walk.
9. Selling the pick that became Darrell Arthur for 3 million.
10. Not pulling the trigger on the Mike Miller trade.
11. Letting Bobby Brown sign with Sacramento.



For the next 3 seasons they have over 26 million per year tied up in 3 over the hill swingmen, while they have one of the worst benches in the entire league with very few tradeable assets if that's not bad management I don't know what is. And it's not just Shinn being cheap Bower hasn't using their assets very wise at all.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

...Dumars and Buford are up at the top and Petrie is top 10. But Dumars and Buford are in awkward situations. Their teams are getting older and it's really time to start shaking those teams up to get younger while their current players still have trade value. But those players have been loyal for years and it's hard to not reciprocate that loyalty. But honestly they are both being trigger shy, Billups should have been traded after his meltdown in the 07 playoffs, and age killed the Spurs depth. I know RC Buford probably didn't want to do it but trading Luis Scola to save a few million was one of the most retarded trades in the past few years.

This is a very good point. I can't fully speak about the Spurs, but as far as Dumars trading Billups, I think there's a little more to that than just not wanting to trade him. There were talks in the works this summer about Billups going to Denver. Detroit wanted Carmelo Anthony, but the Nuggets were offering Marcus Camby. There were other details to it, but they could never get anything worked out. Come the trade deadline, I can see the Pistons looking quite different, dependent of course on how Rodney Stuckey plays and if anyone wants Rasheed Wallace's expiring contract.

[Trueblood]

There was only a 13.5 million difference in Lafrentz and Ratliffs contracts. Telfair and Khryapa were unloaded that night their salaries add up to 7.5 million. They sent out 30.7 million in salaries that night and took back 39.5. 9 million really isn't much for another top 10 pick unless your owner is Shinn or Sterling most owners would spring for a deal like that. They paid 9 million in luxury taxes in 06-07 which they would have paid anyway with Ratliff. They paid 6 million in luxury taxes last season which they would have paid anyway with Ratliff. This season with Darius Miles not counting against their cap they will only pay about 2 million in luxury taxes. So Lafrentzs cost is 11 million or less than 3 million per year, that's really not that big of a salary difference to any owner.


Now all the buying of late 1st rounders for 3 million each, having Paul Allen as an owner does help with that. They bought Rudy Fernandez, Sergio Rodriguez, and Nic Batum for 3 million each and Petteri Koponen for Derrick Byars and 2 million. So 14 million for 3 future studs and well Sergio is a dud, that's cheap. Cheaper than signing James Posey for 25 million or Chris Duhon for 12 million.





Dumars and Buford are up at the top and Petrie is top 10. But Dumars and Buford are in awkward situations. Their teams are getting older and it's really time to start shaking those teams up to get younger while their current players still have trade value. But those players have been loyal for years and it's hard to not reciprocate that loyalty. But honestly they are both being trigger shy, Billups should have been traded after his meltdown in the 07 playoffs, and age killed the Spurs depth. I know RC Buford probably didn't want to do it but trading Luis Scola to save a few million was one of the most retarded trades in the past few years.

The difference was that Ratliff's deal expired a year earlier. That means that you get out of lux tax land a year earlier and that's attractive when you see how lux tax conscious the owners have become. Thankfully, Allen isn't one of them and it netted Roy for the Blazers. Keep in mind that Ratliff's expiring deal is what got the KG deal done for Boston. Had Lafrentz still been in Boston, that probably would've been the difference between getting and not getting the KG for the Celtics and ultimately, a title. Al Jefferson, the draft picks, the cash and the role players are nice but at the end of the day, getting under the tax for this season is what Minnesota wanted more than anything.

[Trueblood]

Jeff Bower sucks. Drafting CP3 was a no brainer and he's lucky that Steve Patterson was running things in Portland during the 05 draft or CP3 would be a Trailblazer. Kevin Pritchard lobbied hard for them to keep the 3rd pick and draft CP3 this is ultimately why Patterson was replaced by Pritchard.

Bowers good moves:
1. Drafting CP3 (no brainer)
2. Trading for Tyson Chandler
3. Drafting Julian Wright
4. Stealing Brandon Bass in the 2nd round
4. Not pulling the trigger on the Ben Gordon trade
5. Letting Pargo walk

Bowers bad moves:
1. Letting Byron have major influence on his moves
2. Signing Peja to that ridiculous contract its killing their cap flexibility plus they were bidding against no one. Very few teams were interested in Peja and his bad back.
3. Drafting Hilton Armstrong and Cedric Simmons over Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Lowry or just about anyone else would have been better.
4. Signing an over the hill Bobby Jackson to a ridiculous contract
5. Trading Bobby Jackson for Mike James and his more ridiculous contract.
6. Overpaying for an over the hill Mo Pete, starting next year they will regret it
7. 6 million per year for 4 years for a 31 year old James Posey, in 2 years they will regret it.
8. Letting Brandon Bass walk.
9. Selling the pick that became Darrell Arthur for 3 million.
10. Not pulling the trigger on the Mike Miller trade.
11. Letting Bobby Brown sign with Sacramento.



For the next 3 seasons they have over 26 million per year tied up in 3 over the hill swingmen, while they have one of the worst benches in the entire league with very few tradeable assets if that's not bad management I don't know what is. And it's not just Shinn being cheap Bower hasn't using their assets very wise at all.

Good list. You make a lot of good points although Bower has been handcuffed by Shinn's wallet. Of course, when Shinn has opened up his wallet, it was done because Bower blew a draft pick and then needed to fill a position of need through free agency as a result. A good example would be when they signed Mo Pete because they didn't do the right thing and pick a wing player instead of Cedric Simmons. Brewer would've been the right pick. Even Rodney Carney would work well with CP3.

Signing BJax was a joke although I liked the Peja signing. The problem was that they paid him way too much. Give him a normal deal and don't sign Mo Pete and they have the needed flexibility.

Selling the draft pick is on Shinn all the way. Bower told him that they needed Posey so he wanted extra dough and selling the pick was the way to do it or so he thought.

Just out of curiosity, what was the Mike Miller deal?

[Starksfan311]

The difference was that Ratliff's deal expired a year earlier. That means that you get out of lux tax land a year earlier and that's attractive when you see how lux tax conscious the owners have become. Thankfully, Allen isn't one of them and it netted Roy for the Blazers. Keep in mind that Ratliff's expiring deal is what got the KG deal done for Boston. Had Lafrentz still been in Boston, that probably would've been the difference between getting and not getting the KG for the Celtics and ultimately, a title. Al Jefferson, the draft picks, the cash and the role players are nice but at the end of the day, getting under the tax for this season is what Minnesota wanted more than anything.



Yes Ratliffs deal was a year shorter, but it basically has no effect on their luxury tax situation. The difference in luxury taxes is only 2 million. And what the Celtics did with Ratliff afterward means nothing when assessing this trade.

[Starksfan311]

Good list. You make a lot of good points although Bower has been handcuffed by Shinn's wallet. Of course, when Shinn has opened up his wallet, it was done because Bower blew a draft pick and then needed to fill a position of need through free agency as a result. A good example would be when they signed Mo Pete because they didn't do the right thing and pick a wing player instead of Cedric Simmons. Brewer would've been the right pick. Even Rodney Carney would work well with CP3.

Signing BJax was a joke although I liked the Peja signing. The problem was that they paid him way too much. Give him a normal deal and don't sign Mo Pete and they have the needed flexibility.

Selling the draft pick is on Shinn all the way. Bower told him that they needed Posey so he wanted extra dough and selling the pick was the way to do it or so he thought.

Just out of curiosity, what was the Mike Miller deal?


Bobby Jackson, Rasual Butler, Hilton Armstrong, Pargo, 08 1st
for
Mike Miller, Jason Collins, JC Navarro

[Starksfan311]

This is a very good point. I can't fully speak about the Spurs, but as far as Dumars trading Billups, I think there's a little more to that than just not wanting to trade him. There were talks in the works this summer about Billups going to Denver. Detroit wanted Carmelo Anthony, but the Nuggets were offering Marcus Camby. There were other details to it, but they could never get anything worked out. Come the trade deadline, I can see the Pistons looking quite different, dependent of course on how Rodney Stuckey plays and if anyone wants Rasheed Wallace's expiring contract.


Carmelo is a crybaby, a locker room cancer and a loser so that trade wouldn't have been great anyway.

If Maxiell and Amir Johnson can step up they'll still be a true contender then I doubt they make any moves. But if not, McDyess and Sheed alone won't get it done, they could make some major changes.

Honestly Chris Wilcox would be the perfect player for them right now.

[Trueblood]

Yes Ratliffs deal was a year shorter, but it basically has no effect on their luxury tax situation. The difference in luxury taxes is only 2 million. And what the Celtics did with Ratliff afterward means nothing when assessing this trade.

What the Celtics did with Ratliff is relevant in that it demonstrates the importance of expiring contracts. Without his deal, Boston doesn't get KG and thus doesn't win the title.

As to why it's important regarding the Blazers and Allen, most cheap owners would value Ratliff's deal so much that they wouldn't have given it up along with Telfair in exchange for Lafrentz and the #6 pick. Had they been able to just trade Telfair straight up for the #6 pick, they would've done that. With Ratliff counting for 0 this year as opposed to Lafrentz at 12 million, they would be 2 million under the tax as opposed to 10 million over. When you compute dollar for dollar, that's $20 million plus missing out on an assumed lux tax payout of $ 5 million for a grand total of $25 million. Most cheap owners would jump on that as opposed to bringing in a talent like Roy but Allen didn't care and that benefits Pritchard.

And like I said before, it worked for the Celtics as they parlayed Ratliff's deal into getting KG whereas Minnesota wouldn't have taken on Lafrentz as they would be paying the tax this year for a lottery team. Ratliff instead of Lafrentz is 0 instead of 12. Dollar for dollar plus the payout and you're looking at $25 million. Trust me, if the tax difference was just $2 million, the Celtics never would've given up the #6 pick for Telfair and Minny wouldn't have given up KG for Jefferson, picks and filler.

Don't get me wrong. Pritchard is great. But if he's working for the average NBA owner who has his eye on that $20 million number, he probably isn't in position to steal Roy for Telfair.

[Starksfan311]

What the Celtics did with Ratliff is relevant in that it demonstrates the importance of expiring contracts. Without his deal, Boston doesn't get KG and thus doesn't win the title.

As to why it's important regarding the Blazers and Allen, most cheap owners would value Ratliff's deal so much that they wouldn't have given it up along with Telfair in exchange for Lafrentz and the #6 pick. Had they been able to just trade Telfair straight up for the #6 pick, they would've done that. With Ratliff counting for 0 this year as opposed to Lafrentz at 12 million, they would be 2 million under the tax as opposed to 10 million over. When you compute dollar for dollar, that's $20 million plus missing out on an assumed lux tax payout of $ 5 million for a grand total of $25 million. Most cheap owners would jump on that as opposed to bringing in a talent like Roy but Allen didn't care and that benefits Pritchard.

And like I said before, it worked for the Celtics as they parlayed Ratliff's deal into getting KG whereas Minnesota wouldn't have taken on Lafrentz as they would be paying the tax this year for a lottery team. Ratliff instead of Lafrentz is 0 instead of 12. Dollar for dollar plus the payout and you're looking at $25 million. Trust me, if the tax difference was just $2 million, the Celtics never would've given up the #6 pick for Telfair and Minny wouldn't have given up KG for Jefferson, picks and filler.

Don't get me wrong. Pritchard is great. But if he's working for the average NBA owner who has his eye on that $20 million number, he probably isn't in position to steal Roy for Telfair.



Portlands payroll this season is only 72 million. That is not 10 million over the tax threshold.

[Trueblood]

Well, it all depends on Miles' situation. With his salary counting against the cap, they are at 81 which is 10 over. Of course, if he doesn't play 10 games this year, they don't have to pay the whole thing as insurance will cover 80%.

Still, the team had no idea how the Miles situation would play out 2.5 years ago when they made the deal to bring in Lafrentz. You have to credit Allen as well as Pritchard for that.

And even if they don't have to pay Miles a dime, they are still a million over the threshold as opposed to 11 under which is what they would be without Lafrentz. 12 million plus a dollar for dollar on the million over the lux tax is 13 million plus you miss out on the lux tax payout of roughly 5 million for a total of $18 million. That's enough to make most owners say no to Roy for Telfair.

Nevertheless, you're right in that Pritchard makes the most of whatever he's allowed to spend. The Knicks have anything but a shoestring budget and yet they have one of the 5 worst teams in the league while the Yankees have had the largest payroll in MLB for over a decade and haven't won a series in 7 years.

[El Gato Pollo Loco!!!]

Carmelo is a crybaby, a locker room cancer and a loser so that trade wouldn't have been great anyway.

If Maxiell and Amir Johnson can step up they'll still be a true contender then I doubt they make any moves. But if not, McDyess and Sheed alone won't get it done, they could make some major changes.

I'll be honest, I wanted Camby. I don't know why some trade didn't happen, but it didn't.

I think Max and Amir will be fine as long as they get more playing time to develop. Hopefully Kwame Brown can be the next Ben Wallace for us...ahem...them. I think unless the Pistons are steamrolling the whole league, then 'Sheed could be gone by the trade deadline.


Honestly Chris Wilcox would be the perfect player for them right now.

I can agree with that.