Trading for Josh Smith....

[rednuhT]

Would you do this deal, if we could keep our 3rd pick? Smith is apparently readily available, the catch being that he has a trade kicker which requires the acquiring team to pay him $7 million in bonus (which doesn't count against the cap, I believe). I think we'd have to look long and hard at it.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Smith/Green (could be moved)
Kristic/Gortat

[clippersgm]

Would you do this deal, if we could keep our 3rd pick? Smith is apparently readily available, the catch being that he has a trade kicker which requires the acquiring team to pay him $7 million in bonus (which doesn't count against the cap, I believe). I think we'd have to look long and hard at it.

Westbrook
Harden
Durant
Smith/Green (could be moved)
Kristic/Gortat

hold on...so who would you trade for smoove? nick collison and earl twatson?

[Trueblood]

I'm confused about how this $6 million bonus works.

Would the Thunder have to match that number for trade purposes along with the $9 million that he's owed? For instance, would they have to create an extra $6 million in cap space to absorb that deal or have to match up to $15 million instead of the $9 that he's owed?

Also, is this a one time $6 million? Or does the team also have to pay the mandatory 15% trade kicker for the rest of the contract?

Sounds like too big a headache, especially when you consider that he plays the same position as Green and KD.

[RicanThunder]

Josh Smith is just a two inch taller, more volatile version of Jeff Green. Their games are both "tweener" games. Josh Smith reminds me of a young Rasheed Wallace in which he sometimes falls in love with the 3 and just stays on the perimeter. Now, as a defensive presence, Smith has got a leg up on Green. That's where his height is a plus. If the trade were straight up (even with an expiring involved (Watson, Wilkens, Atkins, etc)), I would do it. But Atlanta will do nothing without the pick being involved. So, without the pick, I'd go for it. Attitude and all, Smith would still be an upgrade over Green at the power forward position. People want to romanticize Jeff Green, but JG is not a true power forward and was owned a couple times last year by true PF's (Boozer, David West, Scola). In order to succeed, we have to make basketball decisions and those don't always go with what the heart would like.

[DAK!]

First off, we wouldn't need to match either one, whether it's 9 mill or 15 mill because we're already so far under the cap.

Second, I don't know where Rican got that Josh Smith is 2 inches taller than Jeff Green. They're both listed at 6'9" and I just read a scouting report from the combine back in 2004 where it said what a great vertical J. Smith had of 39.5 inches and what a great feat that was for a guy who was just measured at 6'8".

Smith is an amazing help side shot blocker and loves to posterize people with showtime dunks, but as far as I'm concerned that's about the only value he has. He's a poor shooter and doesn't play like a team guy. He has a reputation for being a me first type of player who's bigger than the team. Whether this is true or not that's the rap he has.

Here are some stats in comparison to him and Jeff Green by the way.

J. Smith - This year's averages (15.6 pts, 7.2 rebs)
J. Green - This year's averages (16.5 pts, 6.7 rebs)

J. Smith - 3 pt (30%), FT (59%)
J. Green - 3 pt (39%), FT (79%)

Smith's fg% is only a few pts higher than Green's and I attribute that to Green taking so many more 3's than Smith. Since we have no perimeter threat besides Durant it forces Green to spend more time out there than we'd all like. If we were to have a secondary scoring option (Harden) on the perimeter for Durant that would allow Green to spend more time down on the block, which I believe would increase his fg% big time. It would also increase his rebounding numbers big time. Smith gets a lot of his baskets off of dunks as I said before and doesn't hold much value as a go to low post offensive threat.

In only his second season Green has equal to or better numbers than Smith in just about every category except the defensive stats. I'll agree that Smith is a better defensive player than Green will probably ever be, but I think Green has so much more upside as an offensive player and rebounder that it's a wash at worst. Smith just finished his 5th season and arguably had a worse season overall than Green did in just his second.

Add the production with his "attitude", his high salary, the need to dump 6 mill to him right off the bat, the fact that he plays the same position as Green, and God knows what we'd need to trade to get him I'd say this is a deal that makes absolutely no sense.

[Clangus]

True power forawrds are a thing of the past.

I have read more than once (and by different execs and coaches) that traditional positions are a thing of the past. its about having 5 good basketball players on the court. Green not being a "traditional PF" means very little in todays game.

Josh Smith is a good player. one of the few guys in the league truly capable of getting a 5x5 (assist, points, steal, blocks, rebounds) but his shot goes missing for long stretches and he doesn't have that "go for the throat" attitude. For the salary involved we might as well keep and develop Green.

[Grendel_Knight1974]

What's the deal with Jeff Green? Did I go to sleep last night and wake up and miss the news that Jeff Green isnt a good basketball player? He averaged more points than Josh Smith and less than half a rebound less per game than Smith and he is three years younger.

Is it there just has to be a player on the team that has to be moved? I mean first it was Watson. Watson was on everyone's hit list. Well Watson obviously isn't going to be on the team next year so now we have to move Green.

In my opinion Jeff Green is going to be a VERY good NBA player and I hope he is on this team for a long time. Josh Smith is not an upgrade over Green.

[DAK!]

Well, this kind of hampers my point a bit but I feel I have to clear up an error. Josh Smith is only a bit over a year older than Green since he joined the draft right out of h.s. I agree with everything else you said though. Green is already showing a much more well rounded game in only his second year and imo has a higher offensive upside than Smith. Even though Smith is only a year older he's been in the league far longer and thus has had a lot more time to adjust to the league and settle into his style and what type of player he's going to be. Green is still trying to figure that out and I think the Thunder is still trying to figure out exactly how they want to use him. Smith has pretty much reached his ceiling and has shown you what he's going to give you, which isn't bad. It's just not as good, overall, as what Green can.

As far as you going to sleep and waking up to find Green as a bad player that's just the nature of fans. It's the off season and for many of them it's the first pro franchise they've had the opportunity to really feel a sense of ownership with. It's their first experience having to deal with all this hype and the honeymoon that was this season. After it ended they realized now they have to wait long periods in between news about the team and it's freaking everybody out. Everybody is looking for something new to talk about. I'm guilty of it myself since the last couple weeks I've found about 6 Thunder forum boards and have joined a couple just so I could read something new.

People are throwing out ridiculous trade scenarios and flip flopping on who they like in the draft just because they can't help bringing up new topics and in the end they'll be right back where they started off. It wouldn't matter if we had elite all-stars at every position people would still be coming up with trade scenarios trying to get rid of them because there's nothing else to talk about.

[Durantula]

I'm pretty sure that Green and Smith are about the same age -- Green turns 23 in August and Smith was 18 when he was drafted in 2004.

Regardless, Smith is very immature and would be detrimental to team chemistry. He has a tendency to run his mouth, pick up stupid technical fouls, and then run his mouth even more. Mike Woodson has had to pull him out of several games to keep him from picking up a second technical and getting ejected.

I'm with Grendel on this one; I don't understand why so many people want to get rid of Jeff Green. While Smith is a great defender (one of the few, maybe the only, PFs to ever average 2.5 blocks for 3 straight years), Green is already a great teammate and quickly becoming a very good player.

[Thoondar]

Jeff Green is our 3pt shooter. He isn't a traditional PF, but neither was Karl Malone or Tim Duncan. Green has the shooting touch like the GREAT PF's, but doesn't have the low-post game like the "tradtional" PF.

I would rather keep a player that is ok with being Durant's sidekick that averages the same stats as the guy who would need to be the star of the show.

You get twice the ego for the same stats. No thankyou.

[Starksfan311]

Josh Smith has a low IQ and makes too many boneheaded mistakes. Not a Presti kind of player.

[Starksfan311]

Jeff Green is our 3pt shooter. He isn't a traditional PF, but neither was Karl Malone or Tim Duncan. Green has the shooting touch like the GREAT PF's, but doesn't have the low-post game like the "tradtional" PF.

I would rather keep a player that is ok with being Durant's sidekick that averages the same stats as the guy who would need to be the star of the show.

You get twice the ego for the same stats. No thankyou.


And thats exactly why Green keeps getting mentioned in trade ideas.

If Green is going to fit in on this team with KD he's got to put on some bulk and learn to play with his back to the basket and become a better rebounder and better post defender. That or he shouldn't change anything at all and be moved to a team where he can play/thrive in his god given natural position out of KDs shadow.

[GP20]

DAK has already answered your point though. Without Green being on the perimiter, KD is our only outside option. If we drafted Harden, that would force Green to move inside alot more. Which should also increase his rebounding numbers.

For me, Green doesn't have to be traded. We just need to draft Harden.

[Choda Boy]

I can't stand seeing JG mentioned in trade rumors anymore. We've seen him play 1 season and it happens to be his second and we can't make these assumptions about him yet. He's a calm influence on the team and is going to be very good. Let's be happy we have him instead of pining for greener pastures.

[RicanThunder]

Don't get me wrong. I love JG as a player. I think he is a match up nightmare for the typical power forward (big burly slow tall guys). But, for athletic PF's (David West, Gasol (remember, Bynum is the center), Luis Scola, Carlos Boozer), Green usually has problems. Green, for being 6'9", is a short 6'9". He isn't as long and rangy as Josh Smith. If offensively they are a wash, then wouldn't defense be the deciding factor? True, at Green's current cost, he's much more valuable. But in a couple year's time, that will change, and he'll be the $8-10 million man and he will not be a value then.

I just wish some people would take off the Thunder fan glasses and look at things objectively. The wear and tear of the PF position began to take its toll on Green as the season went on. There were games in the second half of the season where in the second halves of games, Green would look to be completely worn out. He would still play his ass off like the warrior that he is, but he would still looked drained. But, if he keeps on playing that way, his career will be shortened by injuries, especially back injuries. If regular PF have to work, Green has to work twice as hard to get rebounds, defend, etc. I don't believe Green's curve of improvement will be as drastic this upcoming season as it was last season. We're somewhere close to Green's ceiling. Which, honestly, isn't a bad ceiling, but at a cost of his body breaking down in 4-5 years.

Everyone loves to look at numbers, but that's not always the entire story. Look at the playoffs this year...by just looking at Gortat's numbers, you would think that he was just some stiff center. But he was very valuable to his team. What I'm saying by this is that anytime you try to compare one player to another, everyone wants to look at numbers and stats. While Josh Smith and Jeff Green would appear to have equal offensive numbers (Green scores more, Smith can grab more rebounds), the defensive side of the ball is the difference. Like someone said, Smith is a 5x5 threat, while Green is not. I just think Smith would be more valuable to this team over time than Green would.

And one more point, since when is the PF position changing? Last time I checked, the top 5 or 6 teams, excluding Orlando all have what would be classified as normal PF's.

LA Lakers - Pau Gasol
Cleveland - Ben Wallace, Anderson Varajao, Joe Smith
Boston - Kevin Garnett
Houston - Luis Scola
San Antonio - Fabricio Oberto
Denver - Kenyon Martin/Nene

[DAK!]

Don't get me wrong. I love JG as a player. I think he is a match up nightmare for the typical power forward (big burly slow tall guys). But, for athletic PF's (David West, Gasol (remember, Bynum is the center), Luis Scola, Carlos Boozer), Green usually has problems. Green, for being 6'9", is a short 6'9". He isn't as long and rangy as Josh Smith. If offensively they are a wash, then wouldn't defense be the deciding factor? True, at Green's current cost, he's much more valuable. But in a couple year's time, that will change, and he'll be the $8-10 million man and he will not be a value then.

First, I don't agree that they are a wash offensively. They just happened to have relatively equal pts and rebs numbers this year, but Green in his second year with obvious improvement potential in both regards with Smith looking to be near the peak of his offensive potential. With Green spending more time on the block and more experience at the position I have no doubt he'll average better numbers than he did this year. It only makes sense that spending a higher percentage of time nearer the basket means he'll pick up more rebounds (common sense dictates understanding this concept). Also, another offseason in the weight room and gathering experience should help his offensive game. At no time did I ever question Smith's defensive abilities nor did I ever say that Green would be as good as him there but rather I agreed that Smith is currently better defensively than Green will probably ever be. I fully understand that, but it doesn't mean that he can't develop into a better defensive post presence with more weight room time. In the end I think Green can be a near double digit rebound guy and average close to if not more than 20 pts a game. I don't think Smith will ever attain those numbers.

I just wish some people would take off the Thunder fan glasses and look at things objectively. The wear and tear of the PF position began to take its toll on Green as the season went on. There were games in the second half of the season where in the second halves of games, Green would look to be completely worn out. He would still play his ass off like the warrior that he is, but he would still looked drained. But, if he keeps on playing that way, his career will be shortened by injuries, especially back injuries. If regular PF have to work, Green has to work twice as hard to get rebounds, defend, etc. I don't believe Green's curve of improvement will be as drastic this upcoming season as it was last season. We're somewhere close to Green's ceiling. Which, honestly, isn't a bad ceiling, but at a cost of his body breaking down in 4-5 years.

I can see your point with the whole blinders comment. It happens every year in every sport. If I read one more comment about a UW or WSU fan wanting the Seahawks to draft one of their players even though they had a combined 1 win last season I'll shoot myself, but that's how fans are. With this team I think some people do have blinders to some of the players, but in this case I don't see the value in acquiring Smith by letting Green go. I'd challenge you to find any player in their first season as a full time starter that didn't get worn down towards the end of the season....especially a post player. Like I said previously, with him spending another season in the weight room and learning how to deal with NBA bigs I think he'll handle the grind much better. Also, DJ White will be spelling him more throughout the season so he doesn't have to pull such long stints on the floor.

Everyone loves to look at numbers, but that's not always the entire story. Look at the playoffs this year...by just looking at Gortat's numbers, you would think that he was just some stiff center. But he was very valuable to his team. What I'm saying by this is that anytime you try to compare one player to another, everyone wants to look at numbers and stats. While Josh Smith and Jeff Green would appear to have equal offensive numbers (Green scores more, Smith can grab more rebounds), the defensive side of the ball is the difference. Like someone said, Smith is a 5x5 threat, while Green is not. I just think Smith would be more valuable to this team over time than Green would.

I agree that numbers don't tell the whole story...you also have to look at attitude, fit on the team, who you have to give up and whether you're actually improving the team or not. I don't think his attitude fits at all with what Presti wants on this team. Whether we want him here or not I honestly don't think Presti would take on or even entertain a guy who has the slightest doubt when it comes to attitude. If you look at ever single player on this team they all have a very humble low key attitude that is team first. Pick a single guy on the team that is flashy....not a single one. Hell, our superstar plays video games on his days off with the neighborhood kids. I personally think Smith is an overall step down from Green, but even if he is equal or slightly better what would we have to give up to get him? Would we need to give up our #3 pick? Would we need to give up Green? Maybe both? I don't think either of those options is worth a guy who is POSSIBLY a slight upgrade, at best.

And one more point, since when is the PF position changing? Last time I checked, the top 5 or 6 teams, excluding Orlando all have what would be classified as normal PF's.

I can't argue that having a natural PF helps make a team a playoff and championship contender, but I don't think Smith's game is as a natural PF any more than Green's. He has absolutely no low post offensive game and gets most of his close baskets from dunks. His game is also very similar offensively to Green's in that he tries to take it out to the 3 pt line, but Green is just forced to do it much more often because of our personnel. Like I said previously he's a great help side defensive presence, which I'd agree that's something we need, but I don't feel the value is adequate for what we'd need to give up to get him.

Presti is building this team through the draft and I doubt he's going to be willing to give up one of HIS guys because he's not a natural PF to get a guy who's also not a natural PF. There's also the possibility that Ibaka can be a defensive post presence on this team in a year or two, and he's somebody we already have access to. We don't have to sell the farm to get him.

LA Lakers - Pau Gasol
Cleveland - Ben Wallace, Anderson Varajao, Joe Smith
Boston - Kevin Garnett
Houston - Luis Scola
San Antonio - Fabricio Oberto
Denver - Kenyon Martin/Nene

As you can see I've responded to each paragraph with my bolded text.

It's fun to debate the value, or lack thereof, with respect to acquiring Smith, but in the end I don't see anything other than his defensive upside as anything that would attract Presti, and considering all the other negatives of this move I think it far outweighs the positives.

I'm sure Presti and his staff have scouted and have personal reports on every single player in this league and update them frequently. I'm sure they keep tabs on who they'd ever be interested in should a situation arise and who they'd steer clear of indefinitely and it's my opinion that Presti didn't even blink when he found out about this report.

[Choda Boy]

Every time he jacks up that nasty shot I cringe. I mean, they have Bibby and Johnson on that team but he thinks it wise to wait on the 3 point line. It's just lazy offense and it's being a bad teammate.

[clippersgm]

dude...the hawks need a C or PF to play alongside horford...how did this JG discussion get so long...hawks can't play JG alongside Marvin W....

[Starksfan311]

dude...the hawks need a C or PF to play alongside horford...how did this JG discussion get so long...hawks can't play JG alongside Marvin W....


Well Marvin could walk. But I agree. JG for Smith makes little sense for either team. Hawks need a C because Horford is a true PF and will never be a C, Smith needs to move to his natural SF because he'll never be a PF. And if they dumped Smith they'd still have no need for JG they'd still have a logjam at SF. If we got Smith for JG we'd still have the same logjam at SF.


If we're trading JG we better be getting a C in return. I think Green will need to be traded eventually but we don't have to get in a rush about it. But if we're trading him now it better not be for another SF like Smith, it better be something like this:

Jeff Green, #3(Rubio), Kristic, Weaver, Wilkins, Livingston
for
Biedrins, #7(Harden, Curry, or Derozan), Brandon Wright, Belinelli


Then Atkins + 3 million cash to Detroit for Amir Johnson and #15



Westbrook/Watson/Ty Lawson(#25)
#7/Sefolosha/Belinelli
Durant/Azubuike/
Wright/DJ White/Amir Johnson
Biedrins/Collison/Mullens(#15)

[DwightSchrute]

Josh Smith would be an awesome acquisition if Presti were building a fantasy basketball team. Trading for Josh Smith is an Isiah Thomas move: acquire prodigious talent while ignoring attitude problems and albatross contract. Smith is a locker room cancer who is owed about $12 million per year for the next five seasons. If you have an established veteran team that desperately needs to add another piece to get to the next level and an owner willing to reach very deep in his pockets, Smith may be worth the gamble. However, for a young, impressionable team that is rebuilding with an economically responsible blueprint, a five-year, $58 million ($64 mil with the trade kicker), chemistry-killing headcase makes no sense.

[DAK!]

dude...the hawks need a C or PF to play alongside horford...how did this JG discussion get so long...hawks can't play JG alongside Marvin W....

This thread got long because people sometimes like to throw out trade scenarios like they're playing xbox 360 thinking any team would accept a trade if it meets money and "rating" equality....whether the trade makes any sense for the other team or not. And then they like to argue it to death explaining why it makes so much sense for us, but in the end forgetting that most of these trade scenarios thrown out rarely make any sense for the other team.

[clippersgm]

This thread got long because people sometimes like to throw out trade scenarios like they're playing xbox 360 thinking any team would accept a trade if it meets money and "rating" equality....whether the trade makes any sense for the other team or not. And then they like to argue it to death explaining why it makes so much sense for us, but in the end forgetting that most of these trade scenarios thrown out rarely make any sense for the other team.

that's the smartest thing you've ever said...lol..how do i vote points onto this comment??



and don't get smart and try to say you were referring to me, cuz i've at least come up with offers that would somewhat seem to help both teams, rather than just some nonsense for the sake of nonsense...i've always offered you guys a big man, which you need.

[RicanThunder]

I just want to say Thank you for keeping this post on its subject and not turning it into something it is not. While many are not agreeing with my assesment, I still enjoy the back and forth banter. Good job on keeping this post on the same subject for at least 3 pages.

I will say this, if Green bulks up, then he loses the speed he uses against the bigger bulkier PF's. All the information I have gotten on Smith has kind of changed my mind about trading him for Green. But I still believe our future at PF lies in a bigger, bulkier player. The reason our interior defense is so porous is because our center (Krstic) is a perimeter center that lacks mobility and jumping ability, and our PF is a little short. In order to correct this, one of the two has to be exchanged for a defensive minded, rebound-grabbing, rim protecting player. That's what I'm basically saying about this situation. Is Smith the best player to get? No, but he was the one that was brought up in the conversation. In the future, a change towards a defensive minded center or a bigger PF will have to be made for us to be successful.

[Choda Boy]

The NBA. Where 6'9" is short happens.

[DwightSchrute]

The NBA. Where 6'9" is short happens.Height, in and of itself, doesn't mean that much. Standing reach is much more important. Green's standing reach is only 8'7", which is really low for a PF. He has the same standing reach as James Harden.

I love Jeff Green, but there is a lot of merit to the argument that he's not equipped to be a full-time PF.

[GP20]

Yeah I agree. Height isn't that much of an issue. Barkley was only 6'4 and he was an animal at PF.

I agree Green isn't a natural PF. I still think he is a SF. But if we had a great defensive C with great rebounding skills, I think that would offset Green not being a "natural" PF. Kinda like Rashard Lewis for the Magic. Who knows though. If Green puts on a few pounds and builds his strength, he still could be a good asset at PF for us both defensively and offensively.

[Durantula]

Yeah I agree. Height isn't that much of an issue. Barkley was only 6'4 and he was an animal at PF.

Rodman was 6'6" and skinny as a rail, but he's one of the greatest rebounders in history and one of the few defenders that held their own against Shaq.

[Obi-One-Ginobili]

I'm pretty sure that Green and Smith are about the same age -- Green turns 23 in August and Smith was 18 when he was drafted in 2004.

Regardless, Smith is very immature and would be detrimental to team chemistry. He has a tendency to run his mouth, pick up stupid technical fouls, and then run his mouth even more. Mike Woodson has had to pull him out of several games to keep him from picking up a second technical and getting ejected.

I'm with Grendel on this one; I don't understand why so many people want to get rid of Jeff Green. While Smith is a great defender (one of the few, maybe the only, PFs to ever average 2.5 blocks for 3 straight years), Green is already a great teammate and quickly becoming a very good player.

Agreed.